There Ought to Be a Law...

OR: Are Sports More Important Than Faith?

Published on August 17, 2004 By CrispE In Politics

(This article reflects my sense of anxiety over what is a religious issue in a sense. However, I decided to put on the Politics Forum because it is about using laws to promote values in society.)

Recently a long time friend invited me to a meeting of the education committee at my church. I no longer have children (well, she's 25, so, sort of, but not really) and spend most of my time in trying to encourage young families whom are seeking God to come and see what our church is all about. But I agreed because I believe in education (was a teacher once upon a time) and was interested in how the Sunday School was doing.

It was quite surprising to me that the Sunday School Committee was actually suggesting that perhaps Sunday School was going to be cancelled in the fall because it wasn't felt that there was enough interest from the kids to make it worthwhile to have. So, in an effort to see if the kids and parents would be too disappointed by this (churches hate to lose anyone through "disappointment") they held a "fun night" to see how the kids felt about this.

Perhaps in the interest of fairness I should say that I don't believe kids should have a say in whether they go to Sunday School. That is, to me, a parental responsibility. When my daughter became 2 years old she began Christian education and her mother and I attended every week also. It's part of what some people call "family values" as opposed to the parent who says "this looks Christian, kid, you go while Mom and Dad sit and read the paper Sunday mornings." That teaches values also, just not very good ones.

What I found out quickly was that the kids were so involved in sports programs on Sunday morning that they had no time for Sunday School. There were 16 kids at the meeting ranging from 8 to 15 years in age. 10 of them had at least a 6 week commitment to either junior football (Pop Warner) or cheerleading for junior football or were involved in youth basketball or volleyball programs during the winter. 2 of the others were involved in bowling leagues that ran from October to March that met Sunday mornings.

I was outraged by this. Obviously there is no sense among parents that faith requires participation in Christian education and it's much easier to get Jane and Johnny to go to sports programs than church. The kids were ambivalent about their faith with a very poor understanding of the role of worship, Bible study, or even fellowship in their lives.

Now I understand proposing to the local government that sports programs not be allowed to operate on Sunday morning (except the Summer) is going to meet with both skepticism and derision. Those on the liberal side will say that we don't need a law to accomplish the purpose of getting kids into christian education programs. It should be up to the parents a liberal will say and suggest an education program for the adults to show them the benefits and joy of Bible study. Conservatives will say this is meddling intrusively into families when there are much worse problems that need dealing with.

But, before you scoff so quickly, consider the use of law in society. It is not simply a device for stating what is wrong. True, saying that stealing, murder, blackmail is not actually promoting good behavior. However, what about laws which promote having children? We certainly do that by the tax breaks we give. It is, at least in part, promoting the social value of a family by agreeing as a government to provide some support.

The thing is, while I might have been a flack-jacketed parent whipping my child daily, forcing her to attend Sunday School, most parents today aren't. They might wish Jane or Johnny wanted to go to church but sports are, believe it or not, more fun. Shameful but true. But we don't give up teaching science or math to kids because it isn't fun. We recognize the value of education and promote the concept by forcing kids to attend schools.

I'm not suggesting we do that with Christian Education. I'm suggesting we level the playing field between a society that says it has values (you do have values, don't you?) and the ability of someone to run youth sports on Sunday mornings.

Do you really think that is asking for too much?

Comments (Page 2)

CrispE

on Aug 17, 2004

Aaron Shepard:

First, allow me to apologise to you for what you obviously thought was an insult. I have many Jewish friends including a Rabbi and consider myself very open minded about faith. Remember, I threw this question out to the bloggers to get ideas and opinions, not to voice a single idea, take it or leave it.

I'm sure you have things about your synagogue (if you attend) that you might like to change too.

That being said, Separation of Church and State is not an issue in this case anymore than giving tax breaks for having children is a church and state issue. The concept is to slow life down a tad to give parents time with their children which would "encourage" them to come to Sunday School, not destroy civilization by forcing every businessman to open his store at 9:05, give emplyees 2 hours of breaks and close his business and 11:05.

Finally, the values of Christianity and Judaism are not that much different and I honor Jewish traditions of religious Bible study. The thing is that society has gone way too far towards allowing freedom to be THE value we cherish and this is something that is very dangerous. I can easily see how if Moses went up the mountain today and came down to see the Golden Calf people would be screaming that God had no right to criticise their freedom of religious expression.

Can you imagine the lawsuits? Oy vey!

CrispE

on Aug 17, 2004

Gideon:

Well, as I said in the blog, I was one of those parents, the child turned out fine and yes, there were times when I said, "no, you can't do _________, you're going to Sunday School." If you look at the statistics (oh boy, now I'll really P.O. someone) in the 50's and 60's the majority of children went to some form of Christian education. Where I grew up they had a rule that if you didn't attend church you couldn't play in 2 church (council of churches, including a synagogue) sponsored youth leagues.

Today there are no such youth leagues where I grew up and no one would dare sponsor them because of the separation of church and state issues.

You know from other posts that my concern is that we have gone way too far and if parents are going to have a chance to teach values we need to slow down the pace so that they have a chance. I hear every week about how little time there is to be a family but no one seems interested in doing anything about it. So I suggest a way and some people think I am the scum of the earth.

Which I suppose is why no one even tries to help. Who needs the agony?

CrispE

on Aug 17, 2004

terpfan 1980:

Well, my area has a history that might interest you. Where I live the businesses (like most businesses in the U.S. in those days) gave Saturday afternoon off but not Saturday morning. But workers would come to church hungover on Sunday and wouldn't listen to the sermons (which upper class business owners thought was shameful in that day and age). So they decided to give them Saturday morning so that they would drink Friday night and be ready for church on Sunday. Thus, the 5 day work week was established in the U.S. One of the prime movers in this was none other than the guy who founded Kodak.

I'm sure you won't have any trouble finding a way to put them out of business, hehehe.

You see, I lean your way in that I prize freedom, but not above God. He's not running a democracy and has final say in the disposition of your and my soul. He didn't stress values so much for 5000 years (as recorded in the Bible) so that we could run around now shouting that we "deserve" our blessings and will act as we want when we want. Even if you don't believe in God you can see how values are important to living a good life.

But instead....... Scott Peterson and Mark Hacking and Kobe Bryant and and and and.........

chiprj

on Aug 17, 2004

The importance of making a law in regards to this is that it gives parents a bit of an edge. They can encourage their children with it rather than being placed in a "if you loved me you'd take me so I can play" situation.

Again, I would point out your own words that this is the parent's responsibility, not the governments. I don't believe that they need the help or an edge. Parents can be effective in teaching the values of a spiritual education, without a law being made. Instead of the child giving the if you love me line, the parents can impress upon them the if you love God...

Also, some parents have decided (for better or worse) that the outside activities are more important/worthwhile/beneficial to their children. Whether this decision is made because of a lack of (or different) faith (or maybe they choose to take care of the spiritual education in a different way) telling them that they can't allow their children to take part in organized activities during 'church time' is not the governments right.

And while you are correct to point out that no one would be forced to spend the 'free time' (is it really free if you restrict what can be done?) in the church, the law would be made to favor one particular faith. Even with the best of intentions, this is not a good area for the government to step in. It still (at best) blurs the line between church and state. The law would, in effect, be biased towards christian beliefs.

This is very different from the example posted about chik-fil-a. Their corporate policy is to not be open on Sunday. That is the right of the owner. No governmental agency is forcing them to close. It would be wrong for the government to force them to open on Sundays.

Perhaps the change could be made if the church reached out to it's community of parents and impressed upon them the importance of Sunday School. If enough parents can be convinced, then the activities would take a hit in attendance. That in turn could cause a change in the schedule. The point is, the parents have to make the effort and the change. Not the government. In all honesty, the government has no business telling me I can't let my child play football or cheerlead on Sunday mornings. My church could tell me that but not the government.

It simply states that the town (as a government) has a right to set aside time so that families might spend time together.

I don't think that the town has that right. While the government has the right to take a child away from an abusive home, the government has no right to tell me when to spend time with my family. That's my choice. If you counter that the government isn't telling me that I have to spend the time with my family, then why can't I allow my kids to play ball? I mean, if I don't take them to Sunday School and I don't actively spend the time with them and allow them to, say, play video games, then the law is not doing any good, even by giving me a leg up. The law would not be solving the basic problem.

And while I'm sure there are parents who drop the kids off to the Sunday morning babysitter (coach), there are probably parents that take the time to watch their child play as an oppurtunity to enjoy quality time.

terpfan1980

on Aug 17, 2004

Crispe - I'm sorry, but as pointed out in the thread above, favoring one man's religon over another is just cause for trouble.

I believe in a higher authority, but I also believe that if that higher authority is as loving of "us" as we are told, then he doesn't require us to go to church and prove how holy we are.

In any instance, I don't need the government to tell me that I should take Sunday off instead of Wednesday, or Saturday instead of Sunday.

I also don't need it to decide for me that Seventh Day Adventist is the proper religon, or that Buddha is the only way, or worse yet that Wahabism and Allah rule the world and we must all bow to mecca.

That is what you are asking for though, and what you would get.

I believe that our children have a right -- at our discretion -- to be sent to a private school with "public dollars" (vouchers) if we so choose, and I believe that our children have a right to take a moment of silence and use it for prayer. I believe that our children should say the Pledge of Allegiance (as it exists now) including saying "one nation under god" while still allowing that children that don't want to say "under god" may say the pledge while leaving out those words.

With that all said, I also believe that government doesn't belong in the business of religon, and that NO ONE may tell me what my work schedule or play schedule should be except those that I specifically negotiate with.

After you (Crispe) get rules passed that outlaw the use of Sundays for anything other than Church, I'll have to hunt you down and hurt you for doing away with NFL Football games, Sunday afternoon baseball games, Matinee pricing at the local Muvico for Sunday's early showings, the loss of my opportunities to use the local hardware store for my household repair needs or for getting supplies to continue to build my backyard chapel and house of worship

or any number of other reasons why.

CrispE

on Aug 17, 2004

Terpfan 1980:

Well, I wasn't advocating anything other than Sunday morning. BTW, I do not agree with vouchers because it creates an unequal educational system when the purpose of public education is to do the opposite. However, I understand that frustration also.

I also am against government intervention in religion but I think there is a sense that government can "encourage" through law social change and indeed has in the past. Incentives are given all the time. For example, go into the military, get money for college. It's an incentive that encourages values and can be used at religious institutions. Is this government intervention in religion?

At one time there were strict rules against selling most goods and services on Sundays. The blue laws have long since past (even Canada) since freedom is seen as such a valuable commodity. But we are headed for a showdown in our society that sooner or later must occur between the freedom we prize so highly and the social breakdowns we sense but would be powerless to stop.

terpfan1980

on Aug 17, 2004

CrispE - be careful hoping for the government to encourage anything.

The government could encourage (and is trying to now actually) non-smoking by raising the taxes on them until the taxes are so onerous no one smokes, or people only smoked black market or smuggled cigarettes or other materials.

The government could encourage all citizens to change their diets to save themselves from obesity and leave us with foods that have no taste and are later found to be carcinogenic or in some other way unhealthy for us.

The government could decide that we need to be encouraged to support the arts and do so by offering more grants supporting "art" that depicts Christ having sexual relations with the Virgin Mother, or "art" that is made from feces, or performance art that involves the use of urine.

All of these things probably sound good to someone that feels they aren't such radical ideas. Let the government "encourage" social change. If we still had Bubba in office, the social change you are thinking of could be changes such as national recognition of marriage between same-sexed individuals.

If we let some members of society have the social change they want, abortion on demand, even for minors even without parental consent or notification wouldn't even be blinked at. It would just be normal.

So again, are you so sure you want the government to involve itself in this -- or any other -- area?

Softballchicky32

on Aug 18, 2004

was outraged by this. Obviously there is no sense among parents that faith requires participation in Christian education and it's much easier to get Jane and Johnny to go to sports programs than church.

I am outraged that you would even think of forbidding Sunday sports for Sunday School. I've been playing sports since I was 6 years old, and I attended Sunday School from the age of 4 to 8. First of all, I learned more "family values" from a six-week sports season than I ever learned in those four years of Sunday School. By playing sports, I actually get to spend time with my family. At Sunday School, I was shoved off into a classroom while my parents went to church service and my sister was in a class for younger kids. When I play sports, my parents can come watch me play or help coach and I can play with my sister. Second of all, outlawing sports (or any other activity for that matter) in favor of "family values" insinuates that the only values worth having are Christian values. I am a Christian, but I completely and utterly oppose forcing (or "encouraging") my beliefs or my religious practices on anyone else. It's not my place (or the government's place) to tell anyone how much time to spend with family, what their priorities should be, and how they spend their time. Also, extra family time may not be as beneficial as you think. A lot of people don't have the luxury of having a family that gets along well. Going to Sunday School and being a Christian isn't going to stop parents from fighting or prevent divorces or other domestic problems. If it did, then there would be no divorced church-goer on the face of the earth.

I think the fact that such "encouragement" obviously favors the Christian religion has been discussed enough, so I won't talk about that. The government shouldn't favor or give extra support to one religion over others.

One more thing...I currently play on a 18 and under competitive softball team that plays year-round (and most of our tournaments are on Saturdays and Sundays). A couple players on my team have had no problem fitting church into their schedules. They still attend church and Sunday School-like activities on Sundays. They just go at different times or find another church in the city we are playing in at the time. Truly devout Christians shouldn't have a problem finding the time for church. So maybe the reason less kids are going to Sunday isn't sports. Maybe people just don't want to go anymore because they feel they aren't getting the type of family time they want. Sports is just an easy excuse for not going to church.

CrispE

on Aug 18, 2004

Softballchicky32:

Perhaps you haven't read all the comments but the intention of the blog was not to outrage but to open to comment what people would think of the idea. Many, like you felt I was insinuating that should "foist" church or Christian values upon everyone in such measure by governmental design. That was NOT the intention.

The purpose of a blog (at least for me) is to open up to one another's ideas about what is going on in our lives, society and minds about issues of the day, what is going on in the world. No criticism of you or your lifestyle was intended. Personally I am 52 and have attended Christian education most of my life. I also play golf, tennis and many other sports. The 2 (sports and faith) are not an "either or" situation. They go hand in hand. BUT: hand in hand requires that both get time. Not one or the other.

CrispE

on Aug 18, 2004

little_whip:
Wow, a defender... (And a fellow Baptist to boot, hehehe). Thanks.... They will be withdrawing the tanks from around my house any day now, hehehe.

Softballchicky32

on Aug 18, 2004

The 2 (sports and faith) are not an "either or" situation. They go hand in hand. BUT: hand in hand requires that both get time. Not one or the other.

This is true, and as I said before, there are athletes who do choose to balance the two. However, creating a law that would prevent teams from playing on Sundays would make this a "one or the other" situation. Kids are at school 5 days a week, which leaves little time for other activities. I don't think you're understanding how important competitive sports are to some people and how incredibly demanding it is to be able to compete at that level. You just can't do it on Saturday. There isn't enough time to put on a decent tournament. I've met so many people who live to play, and yet are able to find alternatives to Sunday School if they feel they want to attend church.

And what about people who aren't Christians? Is it fair to "encourage" them to go to Sunday School as well? This seems a bit like the same "encouragement" the missionaries forced on the Native Americans, Africans, and pretty much every other non-Christian group in history. How would you feel if a law was passed that prohibited all activities on Monday to "encourage" classes about athiest beliefs? It's not right to make legal accomodations for one religion. It's not right to tell people how to manage their time and what to teach their children. It is the parents' responsiblity to teach their children morals and values, and it is the parents' choice (not the government) what those morals and values are. You don't have to go to Sunday School to have a proper Christian education and you don't have to go to church to believe in God.

And anyway...if churches would like to see increased attendence in Sunday School, maybe they should have it on another day. Why should the rest of the world change their schedules around to accomodate a religion many of them may not even believe in?

I think the bottom line is that the government cannot dictate people's lives like that, even if they think it's for the good of society. There are so many other ways to learn morals and values that don't come from the church. It's wrong to limit people like this. It would cause so much backlash in society, and probably will spur more rejection of the Christian religion.

Aaron Shepard

on Aug 18, 2004

dude, whipped boy, before you try to sound smart, look at the facts. israel was created as a religious state, and the vast, vast majority ofthe country is jewish. so basically that argument is completely falacious

as for crispe, what if someone doesnt believe in god, or if they dont want to have family time. i know you dont believe it, but amazingly, your viewpoint isnt the only one. the softball chick is right. what if i dont want to do the faith part. who are you to say that style of life is wrong. if i dont want to believe in god, go out and drink every night, and read pornographic materials, you have no right to say anything against that. obviously, you can say its bad, but thankfully the government will never listen to right wing nutjobs such as yourself.

chiprj

on Aug 18, 2004

Wow, a defender... (And a fellow Baptist to boot, hehehe). Thanks.... They will be withdrawing the tanks from around my house any day now, hehehe.

CrispE - While I disagree that there should be a law, I do understand your sentiment and agree with much of what you have to say. I don't know that that makes me a defender, but I am not trying to lob shells in your direction (hope you don't feel that way) .

Again, I think you wrote an excellent article that was very well thought out and your comments have been good, too. You've generated a good bit of interest here and made people think about this issue. Thanks for bringing this up.

I also believe that blogs are good for healthy discussion and debating opinions.

CrispE

on Aug 18, 2004

Aaron Shepard:

I appreciate that you have and express a viewpoint different from mine. It proves in a sense that the discussion is meaningful and worthwhile. But I really think you missed the point of what I am trying to say. Go to church or not, that is your choice. Have faith or don't, no problem. Personal responsibility means just that, freedom to choose your own path.

Aaron Shepard

on Aug 18, 2004

so what's your point?

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