Truth is, you have already said you don't want it holy or controlled.

OK, crispe, now you've gone over the top. I will respond in kind.

I NEVER said I didn't want Sundays to be holy. I said I don't want the government deciding it for me. My faith is my faith and does not need a government writ to be valid.

You are arguing for a compulsory religion law, crispe. Please explain how you truly feel this is compatible with the first amendment.

Do you truly feel that a compulsory religion law will actually cause more Americans to believe in Christ? If so, then maybe you need to do a closer study of scripture; a relationship with Christ is a HEART issue, not something the government can establish.

Furthermore, let's say for the sake of argument you obtain your compulsory religion laws. What will you do if the majority of voters in '08 are muslims? Better get your wife under that burqa or prepare to meet the consequences.

These scenarios that opponents are showing you are not hypotheticals; they are based on incidents that have happened under past religious oriented governments.

You can persist in trying to mandate religious worship, crispe, but I will persist in opposing it as long as the constitution stands as the supreme law of this country.

Gideon:

I am not asking for mandatory anything in terms of religion. But if you consider the extension of the argument that government should not have any say in what we do with our time as many have suggested then it is obvious that businesses will see Sunday as more of an opportunity to do business each day and eliminate the position that the church has held in society by de-emphasizing the idea that church services (which are currently the tradition) are even proper.

The operation of church and state separation was never intended as a brick wall through which nothing passed. Indeed, why have a Chaplain for Congress if this were so?

The point I am trying to make to those who believe that Sunday is "just another day" is that they benefit from having churches active whether they want to believe it or not. Factories are purposely shut down now because of the Sunday tradition. But ask the factory owners if they do it because they want to and they will tell you that it would be much better for the business to rotate labor through Sunday scheduling.

People attend church not out of compulsion but rather out of choice. They play sports for the same reason. Both are worthwhile. No one is questioning that. However, 162 hours per week to play sports (everything but Sunday morning) doesn't threaten the sports or the rights of individuals. Organized leagues which operate in that time (6 AM to Noon) could easily operate at Noon. That would be fine with me. But it would give family's a better chance to spend time together and perhaps maybe explore the idea of faith. Maybe not. So be it.

I understand most of the posters think this would impinge on their freedom. They have a right to that opinion. I will support their right to that opinion. Some people still insist that eventually WMD's will be found in Iraq. I don't agree with that sentiment. However, the right of the minority to be wrong is one of the principal protections of Constitutional law. We don't just say that freedom of the "right speech" is guaranteed, we say all speech.

So really you and I are on the same side, seeing that our faith base in this country is eroding. For 40 years churches have been inviting people to come and seek God and for 40 years the churches have been losing. Now the problem gets more serious. The problem becomes that the church is becoming irrelevant. When that happens society becomes poorer, less moral, less able to meet the challenges that inevitably confront all people.

What will we of faith say to our God then? That we believed setting aside 6 hours per week on Sunday morning was too much to ask of our people? That separation of church and state as we interpreted it was more important to us than Him?

What will we of faith say to our God then? That we believed setting aside 6 hours per week on Sunday morning was too much to ask of our people? That separation of church and state as we interpreted it was more important to us than Him?

Sorry to be blunt Crispe, but what you say to your god is your problem and not the problem of the government nor of the public.

The operation of church and state separation was never intended as a brick wall through which nothing passed. Indeed, why have a Chaplain for Congress if this were so?

The congress is not mandated to see that chaplin every sunday.

The point I am trying to make to those who believe that Sunday is "just another day" is that they benefit from having churches active whether they want to believe it or not. Factories are purposely shut down now because of the Sunday tradition. But ask the factory owners if they do it because they want to and they will tell you that it would be much better for the business to rotate labor through Sunday scheduling.

You said it yourself, factories are closed out of tradition. Out of the fact that people want their sundays off. Factories are however not FORCED to close. They still do. There are unions to prevent factory owners for doing everything they want to. Government mandation that they not operate is not how to handle the situation. Further, what if I want to work on sunday? What if I need the extra money? Are you saying that no, instead I have to rest? What if I'm not tired? Too bad for me? I think not.

eliminate the position that the church has held in society by de-emphasizing the idea that church services (which are currently the tradition) are even proper.

The government has no position that church service is proper. It has the position that it is acceptable and allowable, and that anyone and everyone should be allowed to participate in it, but that is all.

sandy2:

I never suggested that what we say to God is anyone's problem but our own and the point I was trying to make with Gideon (not yourself) is that if you are a believer in God and feel that the church is valuable then you ultimately should be prepared to tell God why you did what you did on Earth, even if you will be forgiven for it.

People of faith can differ in opinion and still be brothers in Christ. I have no problem that Gideon knows that. If you are a Christian then you too should consider this from a personal viewpoint.

As for factories, you may want to think about the fact that Sundays were originally given off because the owners of factories wanted to attend church. If they had felt their employees did not want to, then Sundays would be much different today. How do you feel about the paying of more than standard wage for Sunday work? Shouldn't it be the same as any other day? Or is government ok to bridge the separation of church and state in this instance because it benefits the worker?

Finally, what if the government were to decide that church services were not proper and closed churches? Would you argue that it was wrong from a faith perspective or that it was against separation of church and state? During World War I the government prohibited church services being practiced in German.

You see that there is much more to this issue than simply 6 hours per week. The government essentially can do what it wants when it wants. We may think principles of government apply but is that true in operation?

Finally, what if the government were to decide that church services were not proper and closed churches? Would you argue that it was wrong from a faith perspective or that it was against separation of church and state?

I would say it was wrong because it is unconstitutional. The government is not allowed to interfere with church services, either by promoting them or by deciding that they are not proper. Further, the constitution prohibits the government from preventing people from participating in their religious activities.

During World War I the government prohibited church services being practiced in German.

This was wrong. The government also detained japanese americans during world war II. This was also wrong.

Or is government ok to bridge the separation of church and state in this instance because it benefits the worker?

I didn't suggest that workers should be payed more per hour on sundays, just that working on sundays would allow workers to work more hours thus earning a higher income.

The government essentially can do what it wants when it wants.

Well, the government isn't really a person so the government can not technically want anything. The people who represent you in the government can want to do stuff, but if you are suggesting that they can do what ever they want you are misinformed. In a democratic republic, if the people who represent us do something we as a community don't agree with we can vote them out of office.

sandy2:

First, the re-election of incumbents is done at a rate that approaches 85% regardless of the incumbent's records. Second, the government may have been wrong in World War I but it was done and could be done nonetheless.

The point I am trying to make is that government only answers to the voters if they care enough to find out what government is doing AND then act coherently to replace those that don't represent their interests.

For example, you have written an article on the deficit. Isn't that itself reason enough to campaign against Mr. Bush and the Republicans who have (except for a brief period) controlled both houses of Congress since 1994 and the White House the last 4 years? Do you really think that anyone could do a worse job?

Factories are purposely shut down now because of the Sunday tradition.

This is actually a false statement. As one who has worked a good deal of factory jobs, I can tell you it depends on the size of the company. Larger factories almost always produce 7 days a week. They will often rotate workers' shifts so that nobody has to work every weekend, but if it is practical for them to work 7 days a week, they do.

In the years I spent in Wisconsin, most of the factories would shut down on Sunday AFTERNOONS in the fall. But it had absolutely nothing to do with church; it had to do with the fact that, if they remained open, most of their workforce would call in sick for the Packer games.

CrispE- if the government shut down churches, believe me that people would be outraged and would oust not only the president but every sitting congressman and sentator who voted in favor of that. In fact, people might be so mad they might just vote everyone out whether they were in favor of the bill or not.

sandy2:

I can't agree. Of course, to be "acceptable" they would claim some form of security threat or something, but the truth of governmental control is that politicians consider their actions to be non-negotiable with the people and actions to be in "everyone's best interest." This may sound very cynical on my part but when considering how the government acts (or doesn't) it should be obvious that certain abuses of power have continued not for years but rather generations.

I refer to the Rural Electrification Act in the thread for your post. This abuse has continued since the 1930's, gets appropriation by Congress, approved by the President each YEAR and if there has been one protest to it's continuance, I am yet to hear about it.

Gideon:

True, not all factories are shut down but I think you would agree that a large majority of them are. We have 5 major businesses where I live (all have stock traded on the NYSE) and none of them operate on Sunday except for maintenance.

I am a democrat. (Mostly moderate, but considered liberal by conservative's standards) I don't think it is out of line at all to require sports activities to be confined to times other than Sunday morning. That might be because I am a Christian and know the importance of Christian worship and fellowship on the Lord's day. Now, I like to come home after church and watch football on Sunday afternoons, however, if there is some other family or church activity at the same time, then priority for the football game is last. Just how it is. So, don't assume all "liberals" are anti-God, anti-church or anti-Bible. After all, God shows us by His grace that He is the most liberal of us all.

I am a democrat. (Mostly moderate, but considered liberal by conservative's standards) I don't think it is out of line at all to require sports activities to be confined to times other than Sunday morning.

I think it's way out of line. It's a clear violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment unless equal consideration is given to all other faiths. Which means sporting activities on Saturdays are out, too. Oh, yeah, and full moons.

I am a democrat. (Mostly moderate, but considered liberal by conservative's standards) I don't think it is out of line at all to require sports activities to be confined to times other than Sunday morning. I think it's way out of line. It's a clear violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment unless equal consideration is given to all other faiths. Which means sporting activities on Saturdays are out, too. Oh, yeah, and full moons.

I think its way out of line regardless of the cicumstances. You cant confine activities because you don't like them. End of discussion. Even if all faiths were given equal consideration it would not be acceptable, and I for one would not follow such a blatant violation of the constitution. Back to what someone said a long time ago, its equivilent to saying, nope, churches can't ring their bells on sundays because I'm trying to sleep, or even you can't drive a car on sunday unless you are going to church because it causes trafic jams and then people can't get to church as easily. Absurd.

sandy,

Good response, but I would like to point out that my responses, while still sincere, are often deliberately over the top for satirical purposes. I am obviously against this kind of legislation, as you will find if you scroll up through the threads, but it has been beaten to death, and the only way to show people why it's wrong is to go slightly over the top in your example sometimes. I mean, who's really going to check the moon cycle to find out if they can play football tonight?

Lol. I know its been beaten to death, I was part of the original discussion, I was just trying to give this person counter-examples. I was looking to repost someones very sarcastiic reply that I found quite humorus, I can't find it though.

excellent points. if you want to take it farther, what if i think church should be discourage, because its just sitting. we have a huge obesity problem in the US, so everyone from 8-12 on sunday has to play youth sports? oh wait, no thats idioitic

There it is...